Author Topic: Engine rebuild?  (Read 1562 times)

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Offline ScotY

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I have a 130-140,000 mile 16v motor out of a Sidekick. It ran good, no smoke, no weird noises. I didn't do a compression test before I pulled it. I had planned on doing a proper rebuild but after talking to a local machine shop, the sticker shock has me thinking of other more affordable options. It seems wise to at least do a minimum of work on it to make sure it lasts at least a couple of years.

My mechanic friend said to change rings, bearings, gaskets and seals and that should probably be okay. Of course, checking for any obvious defects along the way. Does this sound like safe advice?  Or are there any other ways to go about this?

Thanks, Scot

Offline ZUKIMON

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That's what I call a soft rebuild. Add a cylinder hone in the mix and tripple check the crank keyway and tourqe on it and you should be good to go. Just make sure that you get your tolerances right for the bearings and rings.




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Offline ScotY

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Is there any way I could convince you to do a semi-detailed writeup on the steps involved?  Nothing too detailed, but a general step-by-step, special tools required, tricks to avoid having to buy special tools, things to watch for, how to identify possible problems, etc.?

Thanks, Scot

Offline littlefoot

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Is there any way I could convince you to do a semi-detailed writeup on the steps involved?  Nothing too detailed, but a general step-by-step, special tools required, tricks to avoid having to buy special tools, things to watch for, how to identify possible problems, etc.?

Thanks, Scot

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Offline HUMZUKI

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or download it off here and save the penny [approve]
I wont be done with this till it does wheelies!!!,,,,,,No,Seriously.

Offline Bluezuki87

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just did a "soft rebuild" in my 1.3 a month ago. i did the rings, bearings, new gaskets, cyl hone, and lapped the valves good before i put it back in. runs good, finally getting the 64 hp i was supposed to be getting, lol.
87 Suzuki Samurai. Rebuilt 1.3, 32/36 weber, 2 inch exhaust, Soft top, SPOA, 5 pack leaf spring up front, 33" M/T on 15x10 Barts

Offline ScotY

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Anyone know where to download a Sidekick FSM?  The engine I have is a 16V from a 92.

Oh, and I was kinda hoping someone could post up some general tips that would supplement what you might find in a manual. I kinda think the FSM isn't going to tell you how to cut corners for a "soft rebuild."

Thanks!

Offline Errol

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When I did mine I rented a cylinder hone and ring compressor from auto zone to save a little money.  I cant think of any other special tools you would need unless you don't have a torque wrench.  You can buy some stuff called plasti gauge to check the clearances on your bearings to see if you need new ones. 

Offline ScotY

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Questions...

Assuming journals and OLD bearings look good, is it safe to install NEW original size bearings?

How do you tell if you need to bore?  If the original crosshatch pattern is still visible, is that good enough to just hone?

Is lapping the valves a good idea or no?  I think I read somewhere that the "new" style multi-angle valve seats shouldn't be lapped?

Thanks!

Offline freeriders98

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I would say you probably don't want to cut corners at all.
Ohhh freak something else I got to fix!

Offline Skyman

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Honest;y. if it's a good running quiet no-smoke engine, why would you want to rebuild it at all?

While it is out, I would put in a new timing belt, tensioner, water pump, oil pump and new seals. other than that, why rebuild somethign that doesn't need it. In my opinion unless you know absolutely what you are doing, or trust the machine shop 150% rebuilds can sometimes be a crap shoot. Take a check around the board and see how many fully done "rebuilds" ended up having issue after the fact.

To be 100% honest I would check everything over really well (including the crank key way), and unless it leaked oil somewhere I'd run it. I'm the kind of person who likes to do things right, so if I started on a rebuild, it would become a full blown project and ended costing a lot of time and money.

As long as nothing is obviously out of whack install and have some fun before the summers gone.

FWIW I pulled the valve cover off of a used engine I picked up to replace the seal. I found that the rocker arms still had felt tipped marks on them the head was brand new start to finish. Like I said shoot- it still had the cylinder numbers felt tipped on the rockers. So at the very least look it over before tear down and make sure it hasn't already been rebuilt

HTH
--Sky
Proud parent of a U.S. Navy sailor.

Offline ZUKIMON

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I wouldn't know where to tell you start man. I'd hate to tell you to do this, or don't do that and then you get it back together and the dang thing doesn't perform like it should. :-\\\\

If I had a good running engine with awesome compression, I would atleast plastigauge the bearings and install new ones accordingly, replace every seal on the engine including all gaskets (except head and intake), do the waterpump and timing belt (don't forget the thermostat), completely wash the engine and make it nice and shiny again to help you find any leaks that may occur over time and check valve clearances. This is more of a prep and should not be considered any type of rebuild. ;)

If you decide you need new rings (your compression is low), you're first going to have to measure the cylinder for being out of round. If that looks good you would then need to check each piston to make sure that they are not worn past service limits and check the wrist pins for wear. If both are good, then you are good to go with rings. You would need to get a ridge reamer and take off the ridge at the top of the cylinder to keep from destroying your new rings. You then want to hone the cylinder to a very smooth, fine finish with a nice cross hatch in it. You should be ready to check the crank and rods now. For this you will need plastigauge, a torque wrench and a dial indicator. First thing I would do would be to measure for excessive crank travel indicating bad thrust bearings. This is the measurement the crank has front to back as in trying to come forward out of the block or backward into the transmission. If this is not in specs, you will need new thrust bearings to control this movement. Careful attention should be made to the block and caps when and if you decide the bearings need to be replaced to make sure they aren't damaged. Most of the time you will be OK on this. ;)

If that is good, move onto the main bearings and rod bearings in that order. Pull the main caps one at a time and look for uneven wear or pits, gouges, or anything out of the ordinary. If you have a problem with the crank at this time, you will need to deal with that accordingly; maybe a simple trip to the machine shop to have the crank turned and dressed will suffice. If it doesn't, then you will need to replace it and start over with the entire shooting match.

Assuming that the crank is in good shape, you will now be ready to measure each main bearing for clearance with plastigauge (which just happens to be one of the coolest tools/aids ever been invented). This will tell you the condition of the bearings matting surface to the crank. If they are all within spec, you will be good to go and leave them be.

Now you do the same as above for the rod bearings.

This is when I would order up a new oil pump and strainer (unless you see that the strainer is perfectly clean) as the block and crank are all in good shape and money can be spent. ;)

I almost forgot a very important step that should be performed if the head is off. ::)  Before you get too carried away ordering this and that and building the bottom end, you will need to borrow a machinists straight edge and check the deck for being warped. While this isn't all that common, it still happens and will flat out ruin a head or cause a headgasket failure if it is not promptly addressed.

Move on to the head now and check it like you did the block for being warped. You may have to have it machined as most will need it. Pull the rocker shafts and arms and remove the cam and valve springs making note as to where each and every peice came from (which cylinder they belong to). Pull the valves and look for uneven seating and burnt places and check the stems for being scratched or worn. You want to check the guides with a bore indicator as well to make sure that they are not in need of replacing. If the guides and valves are in good shape, I would still recommend having a shop to do a 3 angle grind on them and I would port and polish if I had the money as it frees up HP that will make a difference. Clean everything up very well and install new valve stem seals and put everything back together and set the valves. The head should be good to go. 8)

Lots of time and work go into building an engine properly and the more time and better attention to detail you exhaust on this, will depend on how well this engine performs for you and to what amount of service you will receive from her. I'm sure that someone will chime in and mention something that I forgot or add their own little tid bit that they do but this will/should get you going in the right direction of where to go with yours. Just remember, you can check compression and do a cylinder leak down test on an engine that is not in the vehicle. It's a little tricky if you don't have a tranny that you can bolt it up to, to be able to use the starter to spin it over with, but a leak down test is better, IMHO, than simply a compression check. Lots can be learned from doing a leak down test and you can find problems that you didn't know you had and it will point them out to you as in what area, valves, rings, headgasket and so on.

Too much typing for me in one post. Hope this helped ya out a little. :)




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Offline rangerscott

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I rebuilt my 16v and enjoyed it.   ;D
Partsdinosaur.    Your engine rebuild needs.

Offline ScotY

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Honest;y. if it's a good running quiet no-smoke engine, why would you want to rebuild it at all?

While it is out, I would put in a new timing belt, tensioner, water pump, oil pump and new seals. other than that, why rebuild somethign that doesn't need it. In my opinion unless you know absolutely what you are doing, or trust the machine shop 150% rebuilds can sometimes be a crap shoot. Take a check around the board and see how many fully done "rebuilds" ended up having issue after the fact.

To be 100% honest I would check everything over really well (including the crank key way), and unless it leaked oil somewhere I'd run it. I'm the kind of person who likes to do things right, so if I started on a rebuild, it would become a full blown project and ended costing a lot of time and money.

As long as nothing is obviously out of whack install and have some fun before the summers gone.

FWIW I pulled the valve cover off of a used engine I picked up to replace the seal. I found that the rocker arms still had felt tipped marks on them the head was brand new start to finish. Like I said shoot- it still had the cylinder numbers felt tipped on the rockers. So at the very least look it over before tear down and make sure it hasn't already been rebuilt

HTH
--Sky

Hey Sky,

Thanks, you make a good point.  The engine has been sitting in my garage for a couple of years.  I probably should have squirt some oil in the cylinders or something but I didn't.  It did run great but it is also covered with oil and totally filthy!  The valve cover and oil pan gaskets are covered in silicone sealant...the previous owner's attempt to stop the oil from leaking from wherever it's leaking from.  Never did figure out where it's coming from or if the silicone actually stopped the leaking. 

Offline ScotY

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I wouldn't know where to tell you start man. I'd hate to tell you to do this, or don't do that and then you get it back together and the dang thing doesn't perform like it should. :-\\\\

If I had a good running engine with awesome compression, I would atleast plastigauge the bearings and install new ones accordingly, replace every seal on the engine including all gaskets (except head and intake), do the waterpump and timing belt (don't forget the thermostat), completely wash the engine and make it nice and shiny again to help you find any leaks that may occur over time and check valve clearances. This is more of a prep and should not be considered any type of rebuild. ;)

If you decide you need new rings (your compression is low), you're first going to have to measure the cylinder for being out of round. If that looks good you would then need to check each piston to make sure that they are not worn past service limits and check the wrist pins for wear. If both are good, then you are good to go with rings. You would need to get a ridge reamer and take off the ridge at the top of the cylinder to keep from destroying your new rings. You then want to hone the cylinder to a very smooth, fine finish with a nice cross hatch in it. You should be ready to check the crank and rods now. For this you will need plastigauge, a torque wrench and a dial indicator. First thing I would do would be to measure for excessive crank travel indicating bad thrust bearings. This is the measurement the crank has front to back as in trying to come forward out of the block or backward into the transmission. If this is not in specs, you will need new thrust bearings to control this movement. Careful attention should be made to the block and caps when and if you decide the bearings need to be replaced to make sure they aren't damaged. Most of the time you will be OK on this. ;)

If that is good, move onto the main bearings and rod bearings in that order. Pull the main caps one at a time and look for uneven wear or pits, gouges, or anything out of the ordinary. If you have a problem with the crank at this time, you will need to deal with that accordingly; maybe a simple trip to the machine shop to have the crank turned and dressed will suffice. If it doesn't, then you will need to replace it and start over with the entire shooting match.

Assuming that the crank is in good shape, you will now be ready to measure each main bearing for clearance with plastigauge (which just happens to be one of the coolest tools/aids ever been invented). This will tell you the condition of the bearings matting surface to the crank. If they are all within spec, you will be good to go and leave them be.

Now you do the same as above for the rod bearings.

This is when I would order up a new oil pump and strainer (unless you see that the strainer is perfectly clean) as the block and crank are all in good shape and money can be spent. ;)

I almost forgot a very important step that should be performed if the head is off. ::)  Before you get too carried away ordering this and that and building the bottom end, you will need to borrow a machinists straight edge and check the deck for being warped. While this isn't all that common, it still happens and will flat out ruin a head or cause a headgasket failure if it is not promptly addressed.

Move on to the head now and check it like you did the block for being warped. You may have to have it machined as most will need it. Pull the rocker shafts and arms and remove the cam and valve springs making note as to where each and every peice came from (which cylinder they belong to). Pull the valves and look for uneven seating and burnt places and check the stems for being scratched or worn. You want to check the guides with a bore indicator as well to make sure that they are not in need of replacing. If the guides and valves are in good shape, I would still recommend having a shop to do a 3 angle grind on them and I would port and polish if I had the money as it frees up HP that will make a difference. Clean everything up very well and install new valve stem seals and put everything back together and set the valves. The head should be good to go. 8)

Lots of time and work go into building an engine properly and the more time and better attention to detail you exhaust on this, will depend on how well this engine performs for you and to what amount of service you will receive from her. I'm sure that someone will chime in and mention something that I forgot or add their own little tid bit that they do but this will/should get you going in the right direction of where to go with yours. Just remember, you can check compression and do a cylinder leak down test on an engine that is not in the vehicle. It's a little tricky if you don't have a tranny that you can bolt it up to, to be able to use the starter to spin it over with, but a leak down test is better, IMHO, than simply a compression check. Lots can be learned from doing a leak down test and you can find problems that you didn't know you had and it will point them out to you as in what area, valves, rings, headgasket and so on.

Too much typing for me in one post. Hope this helped ya out a little. :)

Thanks, Zukimon...that helps a LOT!!!  Your post and Sky's are kinda scaring me away from opening up that engine right now. 

Turns out I ran across a 1.6L 8v motor today.  This was NOT the path I wanted to take, especially right now!  I wanted to get the 16v in the Samurai so I could clear out space in the garage, not buy more junk and create more clutter.   ::)  Anyway, it's actually more pieces of a motor rather than a complete motor.  Lots of new parts, but also lots of missing parts.  I need to start a new thread and do some searching...I need to find out what parts are compatible between the 1.3L and 1.6L 8v so I can see if buying his pieces of motor are going to be worthwhile.  Darn it...

Offline littlefoot

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I rebuilt my 16v and enjoyed it.   ;D

rangerscott,

just curious, ever check your post build compression?
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Offline augeter

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If it is not broke, why do you want to fix it? If you read through the FSM and see how Suzuki builds these engine IE; pistons fitted to the block A&B sizes, rod and main bearings with A B C D sizes. To duplicate what the factory does to assemble an engine, for us mortal humans, would be very expensive. To do less than a factory rebuild on an engine as you describe may shorten its usefulness not prolong it.
I have had the opportunity to tear down many  rebuilds over the years and more than half had damage from dust and dirt contamination that shortened the life considerably. For this reason now when I put an engine together I do it in a separate "clean" room I set aside in my shop. I wish I had the facilities to do a "factory" type rebuild as none of mine would not go past 200k miles. I have seen many Suzuki motors with 250K+ miles that ran great! 


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Offline HUMZUKI

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and its not like there hard to take out in the first pace Iv done full swaps in just over an hr and thats not racing
I wont be done with this till it does wheelies!!!,,,,,,No,Seriously.

Offline ScotY

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Thanks, Augeter...that's a good point, especially for someone like me with zero experience.  Does your advice change if I removed the engine from the Sidekick probably two years ago and did absolutely nothing to attempt to preserve it?  It's stored in a carport so at least it doesn't get wet.  Is there anything you suggest I do to it now to help keep it from deteriorating. It might be a while before I install it.   When the time comes, I will probably just change seals and gaskets and run it.   

Offline ZUKIMON

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If it's been sitting uncovered, without proper plugging of the holes in the head, then it can, will and did draw moisture just from sitting there. :-\\\\  When I have to put an engine up for a long period of time, I like to take some cardboard, or something similar, and cut it into a size that will fit like the stock manifolds and close up the ports in the head. Before I put this into place, I put some ATF, Marvel Mystery Oil or even motor oil, into the cylinders and then put a paper towel into the ports. This will help keep them from seizing up while stored and to keep foreign debris out of the engine.





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